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TeeVeeEss
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2008-05-05 20:37:40

You can start cursing, swearing for starters.

Err.., maybe the BOINCstats forum rules should be followed in this thread.
b. Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users. Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated and will lead to a warning.

On topic:
Maybe you're trying to protect some future commercial interest?

@Ovidiu: Can you take away the doubts about this aspect? It's a big issue for us volunteers
OvidiuA
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2008-05-06 17:02:36

Err.., maybe the BOINCstats forum rules should be followed in this thread.


Hi TeeveeSs,

You are right. You should apply them to Chertsey Al and Wanky's messages because they called me that first. In my response, I was merely showing them where they will soon get if they can't control themselves.

On topic:
Maybe you're trying to protect some future commercial interest?

@Ovidiu: Can you take away the doubts about this aspect? It's a big issue for us volunteers [/quote]

I am not so sure why pointing it in the future will make it more relevant, so I will talk about the present commercial interest.

Artificial Intelligence System is a commercial project. We stated that on the project main page.

Right now we are doing a test for capacity because the neuronal simulator is in its inception. We have a results page. It is not much because that is the current level of project's development.

Down the road some results will be published and others will not. Some source code is published and other code is not. We are deciding on a case by case basis.

If someone doesn't feel comfortable with that he/she shouldn't get involved. We respect everyone's decision. There are participants that are fine with the fact that the project is commercial, because they understand the goal. Plus it is not possible to build a large scale AI system without any help or with basic resources. Can any scientific project advance on both theoretical and practical sides without funds? Theoretical advancement is possible because that is based on a person's understanding and knowledge. Practical advacenment is a lot harder without funds.

We are different from a regular scientific project because we want to build that and we will not limit ourselves from using a business model or other ways that can help us in our advancement. There are many companies out there funded by scientists or that have scientists among their executive boards.

The first one that comes to mind is Rodney Brooks, who is a leading figure at MIT in the field of Artificial Intelligence and also CTO (Chief Technology Officer) at iRobot.

http://people.csail.mit.edu/brooks/

He came to mind first because I just read one of his papers.

I hope that answers your question.

Thanks,
Ovidiu
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2008-05-07 14:28:00
last modified: 2008-05-07 14:29:03

I don't believe AIS deserves contribution by volunteer computing resources if it is a commercial project.

In fact, it should probably be removed from all the stats sites and account manager systems.

stwainer
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2008-05-07 16:52:08

I don't think that just because it's a commercial project, that there should be any "banning" going on. As long as they state the fact that it's a commercial project on the front page ( they do, but I think it could be a little bit more prominent) then people should be able to use their own judgment with regards to joining the project.

If you don't want to crunch for commercial projects - don't. If you do, please feel free to do so.

zombie67
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2008-05-07 22:14:04
last modified: 2008-05-07 22:54:55

I don't think that just because it's a commercial project, that there should be any "banning" going on. As long as they state the fact that it's a commercial project on the front page ( they do, but I think it could be a little bit more prominent) then people should be able to use their own judgment with regards to joining the project.

If you don't want to crunch for commercial projects - don't. If you do, please feel free to do so.



+1

We've had this discussion before. There is nothing wrong with commercial projects, so long as they are open about it. Consider the hypothetical drug company who uses BOINC (and us) to develop a drug that cures (say) breast cancer. I would happily crunch for that project.

I will also add that I believe that stat sites should be completely project-neutral, just reporting the data. It is up to the user to make value judgements, not stat sites.
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mike047
 
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2008-05-07 22:41:45

I don't think that just because it's a commercial project, that there should be any "banning" going on. As long as they state the fact that it's a commercial project on the front page ( they do, but I think it could be a little bit more prominent) then people should be able to use their own judgment with regards to joining the project.

If you don't want to crunch for commercial projects - don't. If you do, please feel free to do so.



+1

We've had this discussion before. There is nothing wrong with commercial projects, so long as they are open about it. Consider the hypothetical drug company who uses BOINC (and us) to develop a drug that cures (say) breast cancer cancer. I would happily crunch for that project.

I will also add that I believe that stat sites should be completely project-neutral, just reporting the data. It is up to the user to make value judgements, not stat sites.



Well put!
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2008-05-08 01:51:14
last modified: 2008-05-08 02:14:12

I don't think that just because it's a commercial project, that there should be any "banning" going on. As long as they state the fact that it's a commercial project on the front page ( they do, but I think it could be a little bit more prominent) then people should be able to use their own judgment with regards to joining the project.

If you don't want to crunch for commercial projects - don't. If you do, please feel free to do so.



+1

We've had this discussion before. There is nothing wrong with commercial projects, so long as they are open about it. Consider the hypothetical drug company who uses BOINC (and us) to develop a drug that cures (say) breast cancer. I would happily crunch for that project.

I will also add that I believe that stat sites should be completely project-neutral, just reporting the data. It is up to the user to make value judgements, not stat sites.



There's a big difference between donating cash or in-kind contributions (crunching power) to a non-profit research group that may be trying to move forward in some critical area of life-saving science, and having a commercial profit-making company use unsuspecting volunteer computing resources to line their own pockets.

I would sincerely hope that most AIS users that find out they've been duped would vote with their feet ( and cycles). There are plenty of deserving not-for-profit research groups that could use the resources. If they want to use my cycles, they can PAY for it.
zombie67
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2008-05-08 14:00:03

There's a big difference between donating cash or in-kind contributions (crunching power) to a non-profit research group that may be trying to move forward in some critical area of life-saving science, and having a commercial profit-making company use unsuspecting volunteer computing resources to line their own pockets.


The only people who are "unsuspecting" are the people who don't read the project front page, or the FAQ. In other words, the intentionally ignorant.
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OvidiuA
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2008-05-08 15:06:29

Hi there,

The fact that our project is commercial has little to do with the true motivation of people not liking the project.

Based on our experience most of the people that voice their differences are concerned with the possibility of having intelligence replicated in machines (i.e. intelligent robots). There are a multitude of reasons for that: misunderstanding, lack of AI knowledge, beliefs, financial gains. We are trying to educate the public by providing education materials (i.e. images, videos...), but it is not possible to compensate for decades of wrong research directions, doom-style AI movies and other factors that influenced the general knowledge about what Artificial Intelligence is and how it can best be used. While these attempts have been positive in discussing at least partially, the issues and oportunities of this technology, they have also provided a great deal of confusion.

Thank you.

Regards,
Ovidiu
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2008-05-08 16:07:41

Personally, for profit or not does not matter to me. Like Zombie said, if you read thru the projects home page, FAQ and the science page you can get a better understanding of what the project is all about and if it is worth your time (real or virtual).

As for the actual AI, I personally have a vested interest in it since I work on medical equipment. If a piece of medical equipment has an AI system built into it it would assist the overworked medical staff to diagnose and treat the patient quicker or recognize and alarm condition that is about to occur. If they know that a heart attack or stroke is about to occur the medical staff can treat the patient to prevent it, thanks to a smarter AI.

There are numerous systems out there that can benefit from an AIS. Radar tracking stations, automobiles, internet routing systems and the list can go on for anything that can monitor incoming signals.

If I had to pay for a value added system that used volunteers . . . oh wait what about the entire internet and BOINC and . . . I am paying for the hardware and the resources to run my side of Boinc so that I can volunteer.

Just remember that it is stated on the Berkely web site to only run the projects that you feel comfortable with and that you are responsible for any hardware/software failures on your host.
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2008-05-08 17:01:30

For me for-profit or for-humanity (and imho it's a clear "or", no "and" there) is one of the deciding factors to crunch. I may start a bit with projects that are open with this money reaping background, like AIS is, and Shoft was not, but I won't do much for their private banking accounts.

If I donate something like my CPU-cycles it should be some worthy philantropic, or at least for common goods such as public knowledge, profit (i.e. egoistic) projects wont get my computer power.
Grüße vom Sänger
ebahapo
 
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2008-05-08 18:26:31
last modified: 2008-05-08 18:33:30

For me for-profit or for-humanity (and imho it's a clear "or", no "and" there) is one of the deciding factors to crunch. I may start a bit with projects that are open with this money reaping background, like AIS is, and Shoft was not, but I won't do much for their private banking accounts.

If I donate something like my CPU-cycles it should be some worthy philantropic, or at least for common goods such as public knowledge, profit (i.e. egoistic) projects wont get my computer power.

You'll probably pay later through a higher price in the final product due to higher research costs.

People shouldn't forget that oftentimes universities get royalties on patents filed by their researchers, even those which are publicly funded and widely published, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case with some BOINC projects run by them.

The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong earning a living. I actually prefer for-profit projects over those relying on government grants, i.e., taxation and deficits.
zombie67
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2008-05-08 19:22:08

The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong earning a living. I actually prefer for-profit projects over those relying on government grants, i.e., taxation and deficits.


Agreed. In fact, it's all the same thing. Where do governments get the money to fund research and schools in general? By taxing profit, both business and personal.

Everything is ultimately funded by for-profit activities.
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ebahapo
 
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2008-05-08 20:22:55
last modified: 2008-05-08 20:25:47

Where do governments get the money to fund research and schools in general? By taxing profit, both business and personal.

Except that in the mean time, governments lose, waste and pilfer first and then from whatever is left, if anything, for it's far more common that it'll borrow when they find that nothing's left after loss, waste and pilfering, it's granted to the highest bidder, in other words, to whonever bribed most and/or "contributed" for political campaigns.

Why on Earth would anyone trust politicians to advance science and technology?

:-P
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2008-05-08 20:38:10

Why on Earth would anyone trust politicians to advance science and technology?

Why on earth should anyone trust greedy profiteers to advance anything but their off-shore bank accounts?

Asbestos, Love Canal, Bhopal, Seveso, Thalodomid, those are the netural outcomes of greedy research: Lot's of money in private koffers, lot's of damage for the public.
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ebahapo
 
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2008-05-08 21:12:42

Why on earth should anyone trust greedy profiteers to advance anything but their off-shore bank accounts?

Asbestos, Love Canal, Bhopal, Seveso, Thalodomid, those are the netural outcomes of greedy research: Lot's of money in private koffers, lot's of damage for the public.

All of the examples above were the outcome of accidents, not design.

Now, isn't it funny that you say that using computer hardware running software made by such profiteers wondering whether you should use it to contribute to BOINC projects?
zombie67
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2008-05-08 21:20:21

Why on Earth would anyone trust politicians to advance science and technology?

Why on earth should anyone trust greedy profiteers to advance anything but their off-shore bank accounts?


So anyone who generates profit (that's you and me, by the way) is greedy and is interested only in filling bank accounts? For-profit organizations/companies/individuals have never created anything of value?.

Anyway, I'll answer your question: Because businesses have a vested interest in not wasting money; in developing solutions that people need and will be willing to pay for, which in turn pays for the funding of more research for further products.

Asbestos, Love Canal, Bhopal, Seveso, Thalodomid, those are the netural outcomes of greedy research: Lot's of money in private koffers, lot's of damage for the public.


This is going way off topic, but anyway...

Natural outcomes? (I assume that is what you meant) You are saying that for-profit research *naturally* ends in disaster?

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2008-05-08 21:40:54
last modified: 2008-05-08 21:41:15

Natural outcomes? (I assume that is what you meant) You are saying that for-profit research *naturally* ends in disaster?


I think this, my, generalisation was as far off as your about political bribery.

But of course they are the very extreme of the free market without control. The companies put the well-being of their managers and shareholders over the well-being of the general public, that's capitalism. Not all managers are such bad-to-the-bone people like the ones selling asbestos even in the 90s, or like the ones responsible for the mass murder by Union Carbide in Bhopal, but they are an inevitable outcome of unrestrained capitalism, i.e. personal greed.

They are a reality, as probably are some bad apples in-between the elected personal, but I trust elections more than the thrust of personal greed.
Grüße vom Sänger
zombie67
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2008-05-08 23:01:37

I think this, my, generalisation was as far off as your about political bribery.


?? When did I make a generalization about political bribery?
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Steven Pletsch
 
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2008-05-09 03:03:40

I apologize in advance if this sounds harsh, but here goes.

When you get a couple of hundred attacks per day from users that are trying to guess the root passwords of the servers you start protecting yourself.

ANY computer exposed to the internet should EXPECT this. Try hosting an adult site if you think a couple hundred a day is bad. And why the hell would you even allow remote logins to root from the net on a webserver?

We haven't start matching the IP addresses of the hackers with the IP addresses of the Boinc accounts because that would be a waste of time, but if that continues we will have no choice.

1) Do you really think the people "hacking" your site are actually attached to the project?
2) If you feel you absolutely must allow shell logins to root, 24 - 72 hour IP bans should be automatic when someone fails to log in twice in a row.

See the previous post about the messages that we receive. I doubt that other Boinc projects are getting that.

Most get FAR worse than that. If you are worried about what a few 12 year olds say on a video game forum, I recommend you stop searching the internet, you might be scared when you find out what else is out there.


I don't think that just because it's a commercial project, that there should be any "banning" going on. As long as they state the fact that it's a commercial project on the front page ( they do, but I think it could be a little bit more prominent) then people should be able to use their own judgment with regards to joining the project. If you don't want to crunch for commercial projects - don't. If you do, please feel free to do so.

+1 We've had this discussion before. There is nothing wrong with commercial projects, so long as they are open about it. Consider the hypothetical drug company who uses BOINC (and us) to develop a drug that cures (say) breast cancer. I would happily crunch for that project. I will also add that I believe that stat sites should be completely project-neutral, just reporting the data. It is up to the user to make value judgements, not stat sites.


Definately agree there, but I think it would be a good idea if the BAM would seperate "commercial" and "non-profit" projects if possible. I signed up to this through BAM and didn't read through the site until after I had already crunched it a bit (100% completely, entirely my own fault, lesson learned.)

Based on our experience most of the people that voice their differences are concerned with the possibility of having intelligence replicated in machines

I think you will find that most people who own any serious crunching power understand technology better than you give them credit for. I think the reason your project is unpopular is becuase 1) Extremely low credits granted (I haven't attached in a while, so if this has changed I don't know) 2) The below mentioned issues with the forums 3) The fact that it is a commercial endeavor.
If you really want to push this projects popularity up, interact with people, find a better way to handle "threats". Be as forthcoming as possible about everything you do, and what work is being done on volunteers machines, establish a better credit system, and interact with the forum community on a daily basis. I also think that you should seriously consider your comments before posting them, and the impact they will have. (As in write it, go home, go to bed, and re-read it the next day) If it's going to impact anyone, you better be sure it's exactly what you want to say, and how you want to say it.





In closing, I don't feel that whether or not this is a for profit, or non-profit endeavor is all that important. Some people won't care, some will. Ultimately it is about advancing the understanding we have about AI systems, and hopefully advancing the systems themselves to push them to ever increasing levels of usability. If it were not for the people that came up with the ideas, built the machines, and sold them for a profit, noone would have the money to fund non-profit in the first place. The world simply can't run entirely on non-profit ventures, there would be too many freeloaders, and too few pioneers willing to come up with ideas and create the products to make themselves wealthy, only to find it taxed away to pay for the well being of the free loaders. But now I'm ranting.



Saenger
 
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2008-05-09 07:54:25

I think this, my, generalisation was as far off as your about political bribery.


?? When did I make a generalization about political bribery?

Sorry, my bad. It was Augustine in the post I answered directly with the post you answered to. My post was imho as far off as Augustines was, and as unmerited generalising as his.
Grüße vom Sänger
OvidiuA
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2008-05-09 14:15:09

Hi there,

I apologize in advance if this sounds harsh, but here goes.


You intended to be harsh so why do you apologize for something that you intended to do in the first place?

ANY computer exposed to the internet should EXPECT this. Try hosting an adult site if you think a couple hundred a day is bad. And why the hell would you even allow remote logins to root from the net on a webserver?


We don't. Unfounded assumption.

people attached to the project?


We assume nothing.


Most get FAR worse than that. If you are worried about what a few 12 year olds say on a video game forum, I recommend you stop searching the internet, you might be scared when you find out what else is out there.


I am not worried about anything. I just present facts.


Definately agree there, but I think it would be a good idea if the BAM would seperate "commercial" and "non-profit" projects if possible. I signed up to this through BAM and didn't read through the site until after I had already crunched it a bit (100% completely, entirely my own fault, lesson learned.)


I support this idea. We have no desire to work with volunteers that are only interested in credits or the other features that the Boinc platform is offering.

I think you will find that most people who own any serious crunching power understand technology better than you give them credit for.


I have expressed a fact. I haven't generalized. I aimed for the majority.


I think the reason your project is unpopular is becuase 1) Extremely low credits granted (I haven't attached in a while, so if this has changed I don't know) 2) The below mentioned issues with the forums 3) The fact that it is a commercial endeavor.


We are not even sure that we want to make this a popular project in the first place. We would like to reach sooner the 100 billion neurons simulated mark, but going forward we will decide upon the future project format. We are considering providing a list of questions to new users, so that we can eliminate the ones that have little interest in the goal or are not aware of what we are trying to accomplish.

We are advertising on Google. We considered advertising on BoincStats but we no longer intend to do that.

In regards to amount of credits awarded we left the default system in place.

No comment for the third item.


If you really want to push this projects popularity up, interact with people, find a better way to handle "threats".


See above.


Be as forthcoming as possible about everything you do, and what work is being done on volunteers machines
,

See above.

establish a better credit system, and interact with the forum community on a daily basis.


In regards to the first item that should be David's decision not mine. We do interact on our forums on a daily basis.

I also think that you should seriously consider your comments before posting them, and the impact they will have. (As in write it, go home, go to bed, and re-read it the next day) If it's going to impact anyone, you better be sure it's exactly what you want to say, and how you want to say it.


I also think that you should do the same.

I think I overstayed my presence on this forum, and because I have a lot of work to do, I will move on. I have a better understanding now of the issues and the opportunities that we are facing.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Ovidiu


ebahapo
 
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2008-05-09 14:51:19

My post was imho as far off as Augustines was, and as unmerited generalising as his.

Speak for yourself. My generalization was not far off, based on my experience with governments at all levels, from city to state to national, in two quite different countries. Politicians I voted for have never failed to disappoint me and to make shady deals with interest groups. Enough said.

Have a good day.
Steven Pletsch
 
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2008-05-09 14:55:41

You intended to be harsh so why do you apologize for something that you intended to do in the first place?

No, I simply don't like to sugar coat things.

We don't. Unfounded assumption.

Unfounded?
"When you get a couple of hundred attacks per day from users that are trying to guess the root passwords of the servers you start protecting yourself."

We are not even sure that we want to make this a popular project in the first place.

We are advertising on Google.

I would think this is something that should have been figured out by now. But you run it how you see fit.

In regards to amount of credits awarded we left the default system in place.

Which is fine, just pointing out that some people won't crunch it, and problems do arise with it. As far as the other suggestions, they are simply generalizations about all projects, and appear to be working for them. The extent to which you do them is your own prerogative.

I also think that you should do the same.

I'm not officially representing the interests of any group or organization. I have no vested interest in "pleasing" anyone. Not many others will even care about this post, or any that I have made. When I represent my public interests and my company, I do exactly that.


And for the record, the only reason I stopped crunching the project is: After a power outage, the WU's I had kept crashing Boinc, so I had to kill the WU's on most of my machines. After which I reconnected and the server would not issue me any more work. I tried several times over the course of about a month. It had nothing to do with any of the other reasons brought up.
Guest

2008-05-23 19:28:24

I am not worried about anything. I just present facts.


From your forums (that I'm not allowed to post on):

there was a lot of hostility on some of the forums
after a couple of discussions on the forums that were hostile

Only one thread on one forum as far as I can see (this one). Please enlighten me as to the others.

Overall I thought the posts were supportive, it's just that the blocking of posts from new volunteers is a seriously bad idea, and you really didn't present a good case.

3) The fact that it is a commercial endeavor.
No comment for the third item.


MRDA

I'm still not sure where you stand on this project. Is all of the source code available, or are you still holding back the commercial parts?

I have no problems whatever with commercial projects, no problems with sensible forum moderation, and no problems with whatever credit sytem you choose. Honesty and a sensible feedback path are essential for any project though.

I do feel that you've been overly harsh on Willy and BoincStats in general; It's just one thread in one forum after all.

Good luck with the project (I really mean that), but there's too much muddy water around it at the moment and until I can post freely on your forums as a volunteer I'm afraid I have to decline from offering you free CPU time. Sorry about that.

Al.
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